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 WHY???? 
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:23 am
Posts: 1
Post WHY????
Why are people using css3 pie????

I'm a web designer. I've been delving into the realms of css3 and loving the way all of the new browsers work with the emerging web technologies.

One of the best things about using css3 is that people with new browsers get the full effect of your designs, while people with older browsers get a stripped back version of it.
It gives people a reason to upgrade to a newer browser and in tern allows old broken browsers (like ie6 and to some extent ie7) to finally fade out of existence.

I won't be using css3 pie - forget ie6, its over ten years old now, why are we still trying to supporting it??


Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:37 am
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:46 am
Posts: 34
Post Re: WHY????
Why use PIE? I'm using it because I'm being paid to design websites for people who define their specs, and include browser compatibility in their requirements.

In my case, I'm not being required to support IE6. But I am required to support IE7 and IE8. In fact, they're good enough to realise that even IE7 support doesn't need to be 100% on our site. But IE8 support is absolutely required, and does have to be 100%.

I am also required to produce a site with "modern-looking" rounded borders, etc. In order to do that in any current version of IE, I have to use a product like PIE. There are other options, but they all boil down to either stuffing tons of extra junk into my markup or running a script like PIE to do the job for me.

The product owners of the site I'm writing are quite particular about it looking the same across all browsers. Before PIE was released, I was telling them that I couldn't do rounded corners (all the other solutions I tried have had show-stopping issues); their position is they want consistency between browsers rather than to have the site looking significantly different in some browsers than in others: so if we can't have rounded corners in one browser, then we don't use it at all. It's not a position you or I would agree with, but it's the position of the people who are making the decisions and paying my wages, and it's non-negotiable.

So feel free to get on your soapbox about pushing people to upgrade to a better browser -- I'm all in favour of that -- but I'm being paid to produce a site that matches the spec I've been given in all current browsers, including IE. That's my job, so that's what I'm doing.


Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:16 am
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Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:14 am
Posts: 10
Post Re: WHY????
Whilst I agree that we shouldn't bother with these design features for IE6, many of us still have to ensure they work for IE7&8.
Rounded corners are an important design feature these days and seeing as IE7&8 account for over 40% of the market (http://gs.statcounter.com/#browser_vers ... 907-201008) we should do all we can to ensure those users are getting the best experience possible (well the it can be with IE!).
If you are lucky enough to have a site that still looks OK without rounded corners and your company isn't concerned about them for IE then that's great, but there are still many of us that have to support IE and CSS3 PIE appears to be the best option if you don't want to have to waist hours slicing images.


Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:28 am
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:56 pm
Posts: 34
Post Re: WHY????
Why are people still driving family minivans????

I'm a car salesman. I only sell red convertibles.

One of the best things about convertibles is that people with new convertibles get the full effect of the wind on their face, while people with older cars get a stripped back version of driving.
It gives people a reason to buy a new car and in tern allows old worthless cars (like 2008 models and to some extent 2009) to finally fade out of existence.

I won't be using your family minivan technology - forget families, that idea is over ten years old now, why are we still trying to supporting it??

</satire>


Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:15 pm
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Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:54 pm
Posts: 1
Post Re: WHY????
I build and design sites for major government clients. While you and I might agree that a "lesser" experience is ok for people on crappy browsers, they don't want to hear that. They'd rather use images to make rounded corners and such. So in order to maintain my sanity, I use PIE to do it "the right way" while still giving the client, the people who are paying me, what they want.


Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:58 pm
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Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:41 am
Posts: 2
Post Re: WHY????
I'm afraid I have to agree with mark. This is all part of the problem, solutions like this are what causes browsers like IE6 (and any other non up to date browsers) to remain in play long after their sell by date whereas they should have been scrapped for something newer a long time ago.

The age old excuse is "my project manager told me to", the fact is I am yet to hear a single argument as to how exactly rounded corners, text shadows and box shadows increase usability or an end users browser experience. Out of experience it tends to lean the other direction, those weird bits that jump around as your browser has to render parts of the page for the second or third time. The problem is also, when one developer does it, it is used as a benchmark of what can be done, have you ever heard "just because we can doesn't mean we should". Personal pride also takes affect, "I've made this site and pixel for pixel it is the same in every browser", when I hear something like that it's the first indicator that I do not want that designer on my team, because they are wasting time on something that is not important.

Realise also that supporting a browser does not mean it has to look the same in each browser, it means that it shouldn't look broken, it should be usable, perform well, be accessable and it should look as well as the browser allows.

Nothing is non-negotiable, you may find that telling your boss that they are paying x amount for you to add some unnecessary graphic embellishments for an old browser that isn't required, plus the x ms rendering delay per page load that these solutions cause, that they may actually change their mind over the importance of it.

Leave it to the browser developers to upgrade and update their rendering engines to W3C specs as almost all nowadays are doing, let the older browsers die and get on with developing your sites.

Just want to edit:
It's not actually the developers that use this I disagree with, it's the fact that things like this even exist. CSS3 PIE you have just turned IE8 into the new IE6 of the future well done.


Last edited by stubert on Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:02 am
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Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:40 am
Posts: 40
Post Re: WHY????
Do it or I'll find someone else who will


Last edited by Anathema on Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:07 am
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Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:41 am
Posts: 2
Post Re: WHY????
Your boss said that to you and you still like your job? I suppose beggars can't be choosers.

I'm not saying all bosses are going to say oh yeah of course it's pointless don't do it, but a lot of people say that their boss will fire them if they don't when there is no proof of this.

I believe most of it is pride from the designer, we all want to be the best and support every browser to pixel perfection but it is detrimental to the progression of the web and the excuse of losing your job is a convenient one.

Just present it to your bosses in a gentle way make them aware of what they are losing in the compromise, performance for users, money in upfront work, money in maintenance, all for some rounded corners on older browsers.

Most designs still look alright without rounded corners, they may lose that small edge over looking amazing and looking ok, but rounded corner and box shadows are nice embelishments, they aren't a fix-all to design as some designers use them. In other words they are additive and should not be the core substance of the design.


Last edited by stubert on Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:10 am
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:16 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Romania
Post Re: WHY????
i Fully agree with you that peoples should Upgrade to Newer Browsers But
Because there are a few Stubborn peoples like old dinosaurs :lol: that refuse to use any browser besides IE8 this comes VERY HANDY !

and a new PC User that Just Buyed his First Computer and installed His Internet will go and Click Internet Explorer ..
and even in time they may not know there are other browsers besides what they are using ...
A fix for old shit is very handy ........ So stfu please ;)


Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:47 pm
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:47 am
Posts: 2
Post Re: WHY????
hi, I am working for a big company and I would love to use PIE, but I can`t for some reasons...for example, if IE is set at a higher security level PIE does not work...

I will use it in my own projects. But straight on the question - we are creating web components for really big companies...in a lot of these companies the user agents are browsers like IE6 and 7...and you can not upgrade to e modern browser like FF or Safari...that`s it. So simply...

If we have 200 customers with 40 000 employees could we tell all of them - remove IE 6 and use firefox? No, we can`t, They pay to us to provide consistent cross browser products...

I am also developing www.harvesterofsofia.com - the official Bulgarian Metallica local chapter fan site. Can I say - I don`t care about IE6 users? Yes, and I don`t test with IE6, and IE7, even i do not test with IE8...this is a fan site...this is my site...and if I decide I will use PIE for it instead to slice images for rounded corners and shadows.


Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 am
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